When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much?

I'm 28.  I can remember several presidential races.  I've also got a degree in history and I've done some work on this sort of thing.  Frankly, I just don't get it.

When was the last time we cared so much?  I'm not suggesting that the selection of a Vice President is unimportant, but the job was once fairly described as not being worth a bucket of warm spit.

I just don't understand how anyone can actually rationalize or justify their vote based on who the number two guy/gal happens to be.  I can see it being a factor, sure.  I just don't get how this is some sort of existential crisis.

A large number of Vice Presidents never become Presidents.  Historically it's actually a pretty crappy road to the presidency.  Admittedly this may be all the more reason for Barack Obama and John McCain to take great pains to pick the best people they can but just the same I don't see it.

I remember the question of whom Kerry was going to pick.  There was excitement, of course.  Perhaps a touch of mystery even.  However, as I look back at 2004 (and indeed 2000) it just never occurred to me that I might not vote for the Democratic nominee because his number two wasn't to my tastes.

I mean, I've hated Joe Lieberman for more than a decade but I would have been okay (though certainly not thrilled) with him as Vice President.  Absent a presidential death there is always room for a primary challenger should "His Accidency" (whomever that is) if that Veep is so incredibly craptacular.

None of this is by way of saying that this is an unimportant decision.  I think it's one of the most important decisions that either Senator Obama or Senator McCain will ever make.  I just don't get how the selection of the most boring and useless job in the whole federal government (unless the President chooses it not to be, which has happened but not often at all) matters so.

Was the first George Bush a worse President because of Dan Quayle?  Not so far as I can see.  George Bush's problems largely stemmed from his being George Bush.  Smart?  Yes.  A good planner?  Yes.  Did he have any fucking clue what normal people live like?  Not on your life!

We know who Barack Obama is.  We know what he wants to do as President.  Ditto that for John McCain, frankly.  We know what our options are.  Will having Mitt Romney be all that different than Tim Pawlenty on the Republican ticket?  Will they suddenly change their platform on a few meaningful issues?  Will Tim Kaine being the VP mean we're going to close down the abortion clinics?  Would having Bill Richardson mean that sexual harassment is cool?

The Vice President matters, yes.  He/she isn't the point, and isn't necessarily even the future of the party.  This choice should be a factor, but I just cannot see how it is dispositive for any sane or rational person.

Or are we just fixated on this because there's nothing else to talk about?



Display:


Tips? (2.00 / 2)

For focusing on number one instead of cleaning up number two?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:03:08 PM EST

The Vice presidency has changed dramatically (2.00 / 2)

Over the past couple of decades. The past two VPS, Gore and Cheney, for good (Gore)or for ill (Cheney) have been much more than state funeral attendees. That's why I care. Also, giving someone the vice presidency makes it that much more likely that this person will be the party nominee someday.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:08:35 PM EST

Re: When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much? (2.00 / 1)

Part of the fascination is caused by the media's focus on this issue. Another part is the role that Hillary will play in the party and in this election. Part of the interest in McCain's pick is driven by the possibility of Romney, who is in some ways a controversial pick to right-wingers because of his religion.

Usually, the pick is something of a surprise. LBJ certainly was a surprise to most people. Cheney wasn't an obvious pick for Bush.

Another reason for the fascination is because it is so hard to predict who will be chosen. If a pundit gets it right they will have serious bragging rights and be credited with superior insight.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:09:46 PM EST

i think.... (2.00 / 1)

its a mix of what you state, the fact that bushy is a douchey, the drama of the primary and dissatisfaction (for some) with the presumptive nominees.

rec'd.


"Democracy! Bah! When I hear that I reach for my feather Boa!" Allen Ginsberg
by canadian gal on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:11:30 PM EST

41% of presidents in the last 100 years were VP (2.00 / 1)

41%  is like winning half.

So VP is a VERY powerful position especially for someone who has their own political power and isn't a sock puppet even if they act like one for 4 or 8 years.

The left wing of the party has staked a claim that the Clinton wing doesn't know what they are doing.

Those of us who believe that the Clinton years were the best in our lifetimes and remember the Reagan years or even the Carter years believe that if we let this battle go there may not be a real alternative to the next Bush.

Was Carter, Mondale, Dukakkis, really the answer to Reagan and Bush Sr?

If we are run by that wing of the party we may have Bush Jrs for 20 years.

THATS why it matters.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:17:51 PM EST

Re: 41% of presidents (none / 0)

So 59% of them were not President?  That's an 18% swing.  Does your figure include the various FDR Vice Presidents (including, ironically, the one I quoted) who never got the chance?

I made a point of not referring to Senator Clinton in this diary.  It wasn't even about her.  That being said, is there anyone other than Senator Clinton whom you would consider to be a member of the "Clinton" faction of the party, one who would be acceptable to you?  If not, then basically you consider every prominent Democrat other than Hillary Clinton to be in the Obama faction.

Odd, no?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 41% of presidents (none / 0)

I wrote a diary about it with just the facts.

Check it out

VP is a VERY powerful position to be in.

Look at how close it got Gore.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:36:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 41% of presidents in the last 100 years were V (none / 0)

Adams, Jefferson, Van Buren, Nixon, Bush I.

That's the full list of VPs who got elected without first ascending to the Presidency through the death/resignation of the President.


by TCQuad on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:34:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 41% of presidents in the last 100 years were V (none / 0)

And Hillary was the only candidate for president who was first a first lady of arkansas....

Slightly less than half the VPs become president if they don't die as VP

Was Ford Less president?

Was Johnson?

If the facts don't support your positions don't try and change them.


by dtaylor2 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:39:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: 41% of presidents in the last 100 years were V (none / 0)

Spot on. It's totally irrelevant that LBJ and Truman weren't elected to their first terms. LBJ took us into the vietnam war and Truman used the atomic bomb. Both men automatically became president by means of the constitution and then stayed on in their own right. And they made some very dramatic decisions. It matters not how you get there, you still have the same power.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:59:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I disagree (none / 0)

That VP is a crappy road to the presidency. George H.W. Bush, Nixon, LBJ, and Truman got there one way or they other via this road. Were in not for the USSC, Gore would have been there as well. Historially, its  a better road than US senator or member of the House of House of Reps. And its been a quaranteed road to the nomination for any sitting VP who wanted it.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:22:07 PM EST

Re: I disagree (none / 0)

You must admit you are looking at recent history to make such a claim.  Your point is valid within the last few decades, but the question really is whether or not this has been an aberration or if that's how it's likely to be for awhile.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:23:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree (none / 0)

Yes, fairly recent history. I think it only makes sense to compare post FDR, since the 2 term limit opened up the path to the presidency. It's not a surefire road to the presidency, but its  big leg up if you want to run.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:31:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I disagree (none / 0)

It's only a good road if you anticipate the death of the President. Nine VPs have succeeded to the Presidency; four (Roosevelt, Coolidge, Truman, Johnson) have later been elected in their own right, each for one term. Four sitting VPs have been elected (Adams, Jefferson, Van Buren, Bush I) along with one former VP (Nixon).


by TCQuad on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:38:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much? (2.00 / 1)

I'm also 28 and have a degree in history.  I also don't get the fascination outside of tactical considerations (whether candidate A gets us State X or Region Y, etc.).  What some apparently want to believe is that there would be a dual presidency, though there is no evidence that that would be the case.  That, or it's some sort of indirect power play for the 2016 elections, though no one can predict how the next eight years will shake out or the identities/positions of those future candidates.  


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:26:33 PM EST

Re: When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much? (none / 0)

It's not about a dual presidency. It's about the very realistic possibility that this person either become president someday or at the very least, get our party's nomination.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:38:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much? (none / 0)

Well, can we just focus on one election at a time?  My only benchmark is that he pick whoever maximizes our chances of winning in 2008.  The fact is that if he loses, anyone associated with him is unlikely to end up as the nominee in the future.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:40:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much? (none / 0)

Even if he does lose it doesnt mean that his VP is done as the nominee. Jimmy Carter was pounded by Reagan and Mondale still ended up as the Democratic nominee 4 years later.


by Mayor McCheese on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:43:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much? (2.00 / 2)

I think it's because Obama's positioned himself as a new-blood change candidate.  His VP pick will go a long way toward showing how serious he is about shaking up the power structure.

By the way, Reaper, I've always thought your writing is among the best at MyDD, and every time you reveal something about yourself it mirrors my own life.  I'm 28, with a degree in history, in law school, and I like to swear in my blog posts also.  Are you also like a Mets fan who likes playing Settlers of Catan?  Cause then you'd be my fucking doppelganger.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:27:29 PM EST

Re: When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much? (2.00 / 1)

Wow, 28-year-old historians/lawyers of the world unite.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Was the Last (2.00 / 1)

I am a Mets fan, but I don't play that game.

Are either of you also Jewish?


by Reaper0Bot0 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:41:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Was the Last (2.00 / 1)

Nope.  So you're not my doppelganger.

(Sigh of relief.)


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:43:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Was the Last (2.00 / 1)

Alas, I am not among the chosen.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:43:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: When Was the Last Time We Cared so Much? (2.00 / 1)

Traditionally, the importance of the choice of the vice presidential running mate is that it is the first clear, unrevokable choice that the presidential candidate makes.  It is the first evidence of what group he's going to sacrifice and what group he's going to pander to, who he's comfortable working with, and in fact, who he really is.

I don't recall this being a big issue since LBJ was chosen by JFK.  JFK's VP choice is a similar case to Obama:  while you feel comfortable that you know what Obama would do as president, or what McCain would do as president, there is a sizable group of voters who don't feel your level of precognition.

I thought I knew who McCain was in 2000, and McCain model of 2008 isn't the same guy.  I have no idea which McCain would be installed in the White House.  With Obama, are we going to get the liberal voting Senator or are we going to get the kind of guy that would choose a Republican for VP?  I don't know the answer to either of those questions.

So I'm on tenterhooks, waiting for Obama's choice, to find out a little more clearly who Obama really is.

In the JFK pre election days, many people did not feel at all confident that they knew what JFK would do.  The choice of LBJ signalled that JFK was not throwing the South overboard and had the confidence to have as vice president a man with a long resume in Washington, and did not fear being overshadowed by him.

Now that importance of JFK's choice was obscured by the fact that the choosing was done in those legendary smoke filled rooms.  Obama and McCain's choices are out in the light of day by comparison.

And I thought other posters have had great points:  the VP almost always gets a shot at running for president if he or she wants it.  I would like the VP to be someone electable in 2016.


"There are two kinds of statistics: the kind you look up and the kind you make up" --Rex Stout
by LIsoundview on Thu Jul 31, 2008 at 01:48:37 PM EST


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